Definitely counting the seconds for it. This stuff like this sets Anand higher above the other great sites out there. Thumbs up for Intel and VMware too, uncensored from the industry is a must see!
If you are going to put the video for download here on anandtech.com please add subtitles. I'm good with written english, but not so much witch spoken english. I'm sure a lot of international visitors to anandtech would be happy to have them.
Unless your achieve studio-like sound-quality with everyone speaking clearly, I'll have trouble understanding spoken English. Not to mention accents; only ones I'm guaranteed to understand is New England, Californian or Oxford English.
No problem with spoken english although it's not my mother tongue, but a download would be really great - even if it's without subtitles I'm sure the community could translate it for those who don't understand it easily (everyone translates 5minutes and it's almost no work ;) )
Very much looking forward to it. It's things like this that make Anandtech the go-to site for genuinely interesting information about the IT world today.
The admins have the ability to easily delete posts and mark users (and all their posts) as "Spam", so most garbage posts should be gone quite quickly. We had a few issues in the first day or two, but they should be addressed now.
Software like ThinSoft BetWin allows connecting more than 2 users to the same machine.
It's incredibly useful. It justifies investing on a powerful machine instead of many cheap ones. It saves money, energy, and when a single user has it, he also has the full power. It squeezes all the Gigabytes of RAM that you may put on the machine, and all the processors threads.
Before the SSD disks, the hard disk was an annoying bottleneck, but wit fast and slow latency SSD, it is flawless.
Is extremely cost, and space efficient for internet cafes.
Windows is perfectly capable of doing that since Windows 2000. But Microsoft does not support many physical users simultaneously on the same CPU.
____ So, I ask you, Anand, to, PLEASE, introduce this to the virtualization people.
The remaining problem is hardware compatibility. A trial Version of BetWin was included with my MSI Geforce 8800 GT, but it crashed sometimes.
The main use for virtualization on family, SOHO, and some enterprise environment computers, SHOULD be to use a single powerful computer instead of 4 or 6 cheaper ones.
The savings in investment, power consumption, real state, and maintenance are outstanding.
If this were solved by virtualization, it would be perfect, but needs to get into the radar of the virtualization people.
What a virtual machine needs, is just be able to assign a specific USB mouse/Keyboard, monitor, video output (and maybe sound USB speaker) to a specific virtual machine.
It's a little extra effort and investment that bradens the buyers space of the virtualization software.
I don't understand why is not already done.
I'm sure that the only ned the idea. The market demmand would be huge, (of course, if people knows that this solution exists.)
I sort of agree. I had the idea of developing multiple simultaneous input devices for a screen (or session), which would be perfect for classroom environments. I got half way but, just have too much going on right now.
The OS runs, but threads/processes are assigned owners based on the used input device - there's a possibility of having infinite mouse cursors on the screen (all different colors). The opened application's read/write/execute ability is determined by the default setting, or the position on the screen, or the manual selection by the owner.
The screen may have private space and/or collaborative space, all assigned and proportioned by the admin input.
Just imagine 3 people working on a paper in Word, with 3 different edit cursors blinking on the screen. The students could work on the same document, maybe one is assigned the intro, the other is assigned some of the body, the other is assigned some data charts (etc) and see others' updates in real time. More importantly, because it's virtual, they can look at whatever part of the document (their view) may differ from others' views, with the option of looking at the screen through another user's eyes. How amazing would that be? Take it a step further and think about Photoshop and artistic elements where different designers are expected to deliver different levels of detail. Because there can be different views, designers can start working parts of on an unfinished document, that the group decides is finished. -- "I'm done with the hand and face, you can start touching that up, but don't mess with the body or the background yet, I'm still thinking that over." -- the best part about that: the staging and delay between different tasks is streamlined.
I'm just throwing these ideas out there, what do you guys think?
Thinsoft Betwin looks like a thin client/ terminal server solution to me. As much as I like thin clients and terminal servers (I administer some myself), and although they may have some common goals and advantages, it's not really the same as virtualization.
Last time I was on an Internet cafe, the air conditioner was broken, and the temperature was awfuly high.
I spoked with the owner. He said me that his month energy costs, were equal to an entire i5 sytem price. His computers wasted energy converted into heat, and his air conditioned wasted even more energy cooling the room.
All the users were browsing Internet, or at most using Word.
Ocasionally some user played games, so DirectX support is necesary, altougth it needs Microsoft blessing, and I doubt MS would like it. If you read Windows license, it rules also that in such case you need to pay an extra license for each user. So, I do not understand why Microsoft do not officially support many users. By reducing hardware costs, they still can sell a license for each user, and justify charging extra price.
I asked for Linux support in Red Hat, and other Linux distributions. No news here.
That would help spread Linux, and kill many Windows. To browsing Internet on cybercafe`s, it makes no sense to waste money on windows. Firefox is the same o both platforms.
It also can be a killer feature in the Windows/Apple war.
I was also looking to add one more simultaneous user to my single machine (for various advantages including go green by reducing energy footprint)
here is my setup (alternate to thinsoft) core 2 duo intel 4GB RAM ATI Radeon 5670 triple display card two display monitor two set of usb keyboard and mouse windows xp or windows 7 virtualbox or vmware
run virtual machine, assign one set of usb keyboard and mouse exclusively to it, put it on second screen, make it full screen.
Happy dual user on the same machine. completely independent and networked.
The question I'd most like answered is when/if we can expect something like VMware View and Teradici's PCoIP for consumers. At home I've got absolutely no use for a 12-thread 980X in a single machine, but if I could seamlessly serve a few virtual machines to stateless thin clients I'd be all over it.
My dream setup would be a 12+ core machine with multiple graphics cards serving ~3 gaming PCs and ~5 low intensity PCs out of a single box, sending full display/USB/peripheral data over low latency optical fiber. Combining VMware's IP with Intel's processors and Light Peak tech, that dream seems like it could be attainable in the near future.
Why do you guys just get some technical insight and not even run "Virtualized" and run in FULL NATIVE SPEED your OS instances for perfect segmented server environments in Solaris containers or FreeBSD Jails. FreeBSD jails came out 10 years ago and have provided the ultimate segmented OS for clean and secure environments for such a long time.
Why are you guys so bound by point and click AND Microsoft sock movements, it isn't a coincidence that Windows 7 came out during the same time MS stock has fallen in its history it is perfectly aligned.
You can be as pathetic as you want to be but your technology movements are bound by peoples stock price and nothing else. You will be waiting for ever for proper native speed segmented OS in Windows because it is destructive to their earnings. Why not use refined stuff that has been around for a decade and is native speed.
Sorry for the tough words but I am just sick of this rubbish because you guys have no technical insight.
i already attend a security conference hold by trend micro and really most of the talk was about virtualization, i was so surprised by the fact most of the IT attendances didn't have a clear idea about virtualization so folks try to enter this world if you want a good work opportunities,cant wait the Web cast :)
LOL @ BSD guy. Get it over it. Like the virtualization approaches both of the platforms you mentioned don't have their own significant drawbacks? Performance is not the only way IT systems are measured and many times it easy the first priority.
Second,
I am really looking forward to this, but hope there will be some decent IT-level conversations. I know that home virtualization is likely a sexy topic for many Anandtech readers, but IT is where the money is and where many big questions need to be answered.
For example, I would love to see a thin hypervisor (like esxi) on all the desktops in an oragnization yet give the people sitting at them the same type of experience they would get if the OS was not abstracted. Think about image updates, hardware swaps, data security and device lock down, it could all be more centralized and efficient.
You're absolutely right that IT is where the money is, and that's the problem. In the consumer space the i7-920/930 is going on 18 months of being the ultimate chip south of $1000, and looking at Intel's roadmaps it'll probably stay that way until at least this time next year. A 30-month shelf life for high end parts (which typically have the highest profit margin) isn't a good recipe for any chip maker's bottom line.
One way Intel has been looking to "fix" that problem by expanding x86 into the low-end market to compete with ARM, with limited success. Another way they could fix the problem is by selling one or two $1500 CPUs for home use instead of their current model of 3 or 4 $100-300 CPUs. The consumer won't see the price difference, because 3+ extra cases, power supplies, motherboards, and assorted periphery will negate the CPU price differences, but Intel's bottom line will see a huge benefit as they would immediately grab a higher percentage of every dollar spent on consumer PC purchases. Additionally, core count bumps (like the 980X) would have immediate benefits for the average consumer, meaning a temporary end to 2+ year shelf lives on their high end parts.
please stress that gpu virtualization is seriously holding up current implementations. I have an i7 6gb ddr3 3 way raid 0 ati 5850 and I can't even use the cube effect in ubuntu under virtualbox come on now this sort of thing should have been taken care of long ago, every other aspect of the virtual machine experience is wonderful. We need at least minimal 3d acceleration though!
Put Simon Crosby on the Panel he is a great interview and has a great deal to do with xen.org. Or is this a Webinar Sponsored by Intel/VMware? The questions I would like asked are: Where is the type-1 Client hypervisor they promised a few years ago? Why won't they allow third party performance benchmarking? If you haven't seen Citrix's XenClient it's a real Type-1 Client Hypervisor. That is real Anandtech Stuff.
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33 Comments
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yknott - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Anand,Opportunities like this are a big reason why I have continued to read your site for the past 13 years. I can't wait to watch the web cast!
full_on - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Definitely counting the seconds for it. This stuff like this sets Anand higher above the other great sites out there. Thumbs up for Intel and VMware too, uncensored from the industry is a must see!Spivonious - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Will this be available to view after the live event? We can't stream video here at work.punjabiplaya - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Yeah I have class during that time. +1 to uploading to Youtube or recording or whatever so we can watch later.oDii - Thursday, April 8, 2010 - link
Another agree - 12pm PST is 12 midnight here in New Zealand :(.pmonti80 - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
If you are going to put the video for download here on anandtech.com please add subtitles. I'm good with written english, but not so much witch spoken english. I'm sure a lot of international visitors to anandtech would be happy to have them.marraco - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
I support that.I don't understand a single word of spoken english, because the sonds of letters are so different that the ones on my language.
Torme - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Thirded.Unless your achieve studio-like sound-quality with everyone speaking clearly, I'll have trouble understanding spoken English. Not to mention accents; only ones I'm guaranteed to understand is New England, Californian or Oxford English.
Voo - Thursday, April 8, 2010 - link
No problem with spoken english although it's not my mother tongue, but a download would be really great - even if it's without subtitles I'm sure the community could translate it for those who don't understand it easily (everyone translates 5minutes and it's almost no work ;) )deputc26 - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Outstanding.mesome - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Very much looking forward to it. It's things like this that make Anandtech the go-to site for genuinely interesting information about the IT world today.TheHolyLancer - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
is it just me or is the new comment system is more spam friendly?JarredWalton - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
The admins have the ability to easily delete posts and mark users (and all their posts) as "Spam", so most garbage posts should be gone quite quickly. We had a few issues in the first day or two, but they should be addressed now.marraco - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Software like ThinSoft BetWin allows connecting more than 2 users to the same machine.It's incredibly useful. It justifies investing on a powerful machine instead of many cheap ones. It saves money, energy, and when a single user has it, he also has the full power. It squeezes all the Gigabytes of RAM that you may put on the machine, and all the processors threads.
Before the SSD disks, the hard disk was an annoying bottleneck, but wit fast and slow latency SSD, it is flawless.
Is extremely cost, and space efficient for internet cafes.
Windows is perfectly capable of doing that since Windows 2000. But Microsoft does not support many physical users simultaneously on the same CPU.
____
So, I ask you, Anand, to, PLEASE, introduce this to the virtualization people.
The remaining problem is hardware compatibility. A trial Version of BetWin was included with my MSI Geforce 8800 GT, but it crashed sometimes.
The main use for virtualization on family, SOHO, and some enterprise environment computers, SHOULD be to use a single powerful computer instead of 4 or 6 cheaper ones.
The savings in investment, power consumption, real state, and maintenance are outstanding.
If this were solved by virtualization, it would be perfect, but needs to get into the radar of the virtualization people.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Do it!
marraco - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
What a virtual machine needs, is just be able to assign a specific USB mouse/Keyboard, monitor, video output (and maybe sound USB speaker) to a specific virtual machine.It's a little extra effort and investment that bradens the buyers space of the virtualization software.
I don't understand why is not already done.
I'm sure that the only ned the idea. The market demmand would be huge, (of course, if people knows that this solution exists.)
marraco - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
bradens=broadensned=need
Hate the lack of preview and editing after post...
vol7ron - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
I sort of agree. I had the idea of developing multiple simultaneous input devices for a screen (or session), which would be perfect for classroom environments. I got half way but, just have too much going on right now.The OS runs, but threads/processes are assigned owners based on the used input device - there's a possibility of having infinite mouse cursors on the screen (all different colors). The opened application's read/write/execute ability is determined by the default setting, or the position on the screen, or the manual selection by the owner.
The screen may have private space and/or collaborative space, all assigned and proportioned by the admin input.
Just imagine 3 people working on a paper in Word, with 3 different edit cursors blinking on the screen. The students could work on the same document, maybe one is assigned the intro, the other is assigned some of the body, the other is assigned some data charts (etc) and see others' updates in real time. More importantly, because it's virtual, they can look at whatever part of the document (their view) may differ from others' views, with the option of looking at the screen through another user's eyes. How amazing would that be?
Take it a step further and think about Photoshop and artistic elements where different designers are expected to deliver different levels of detail. Because there can be different views, designers can start working parts of on an unfinished document, that the group decides is finished. -- "I'm done with the hand and face, you can start touching that up, but don't mess with the body or the background yet, I'm still thinking that over." -- the best part about that: the staging and delay between different tasks is streamlined.
I'm just throwing these ideas out there, what do you guys think?
vol7ron
clarkn0va - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Thinsoft Betwin looks like a thin client/ terminal server solution to me. As much as I like thin clients and terminal servers (I administer some myself), and although they may have some common goals and advantages, it's not really the same as virtualization.marraco - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Is for that reason that I crave a virtualization solution.marraco - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Last time I was on an Internet cafe, the air conditioner was broken, and the temperature was awfuly high.I spoked with the owner. He said me that his month energy costs, were equal to an entire i5 sytem price. His computers wasted energy converted into heat, and his air conditioned wasted even more energy cooling the room.
All the users were browsing Internet, or at most using Word.
Ocasionally some user played games, so DirectX support is necesary, altougth it needs Microsoft blessing, and I doubt MS would like it.
If you read Windows license, it rules also that in such case you need to pay an extra license for each user. So, I do not understand why Microsoft do not officially support many users. By reducing hardware costs, they still can sell a license for each user, and justify charging extra price.
I asked for Linux support in Red Hat, and other Linux distributions. No news here.
That would help spread Linux, and kill many Windows. To browsing Internet on cybercafe`s, it makes no sense to waste money on windows. Firefox is the same o both platforms.
It also can be a killer feature in the Windows/Apple war.
pradeepjindal - Friday, May 21, 2010 - link
I was also looking to add one more simultaneous user to my single machine (for various advantages including go green by reducing energy footprint)here is my setup (alternate to thinsoft)
core 2 duo intel
4GB RAM
ATI Radeon 5670 triple display card
two display monitor
two set of usb keyboard and mouse
windows xp or windows 7
virtualbox or vmware
run virtual machine,
assign one set of usb keyboard and mouse exclusively to it,
put it on second screen,
make it full screen.
Happy dual user on the same machine. completely independent and networked.
Pradeep Jindal
GeorgeH - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Very cool.The question I'd most like answered is when/if we can expect something like VMware View and Teradici's PCoIP for consumers. At home I've got absolutely no use for a 12-thread 980X in a single machine, but if I could seamlessly serve a few virtual machines to stateless thin clients I'd be all over it.
My dream setup would be a 12+ core machine with multiple graphics cards serving ~3 gaming PCs and ~5 low intensity PCs out of a single box, sending full display/USB/peripheral data over low latency optical fiber. Combining VMware's IP with Intel's processors and Light Peak tech, that dream seems like it could be attainable in the near future.
shotage - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Very cool idea!!!!I would be very interested in the potential of a setup like this!
SolMiester - Wednesday, April 7, 2010 - link
Hi Anand, could you please record this webcastfors those of us on the other side of the world who wont be up to watch!Ta
Greg
thebeastie - Thursday, April 8, 2010 - link
Why do you guys just get some technical insight and not even run "Virtualized" and run in FULL NATIVE SPEED your OS instances for perfect segmented server environments in Solaris containers or FreeBSD Jails.FreeBSD jails came out 10 years ago and have provided the ultimate segmented OS for clean and secure environments for such a long time.
Why are you guys so bound by point and click AND Microsoft sock movements, it isn't a coincidence that
Windows 7 came out during the same time MS stock has fallen in its history it is perfectly aligned.
You can be as pathetic as you want to be but your technology movements are bound by peoples stock price and nothing else. You will be waiting for ever for proper native speed segmented OS in Windows because it is destructive to their earnings.
Why not use refined stuff that has been around for a decade and is native speed.
Sorry for the tough words but I am just sick of this rubbish because you guys have no technical insight.
pradeepjindal - Friday, May 21, 2010 - link
www.icoresoftware.com virtual accounts can bring limited functionality of BSD Jail to windows machine.kahwaji_n - Thursday, April 8, 2010 - link
i already attend a security conference hold by trend micro and really most of the talk was about virtualization, i was so surprised by the fact most of the IT attendances didn't have a clear idea about virtualization so folks try to enter this world if you want a good work opportunities,cant wait the Web cast :)semo - Thursday, April 8, 2010 - link
Does any one know if VT-d is supported in their player / workstation products. I think they aren't and wonder when it'll be implemented.blckgrffn - Thursday, April 8, 2010 - link
First off,LOL @ BSD guy. Get it over it. Like the virtualization approaches both of the platforms you mentioned don't have their own significant drawbacks? Performance is not the only way IT systems are measured and many times it easy the first priority.
Second,
I am really looking forward to this, but hope there will be some decent IT-level conversations. I know that home virtualization is likely a sexy topic for many Anandtech readers, but IT is where the money is and where many big questions need to be answered.
For example, I would love to see a thin hypervisor (like esxi) on all the desktops in an oragnization yet give the people sitting at them the same type of experience they would get if the OS was not abstracted. Think about image updates, hardware swaps, data security and device lock down, it could all be more centralized and efficient.
GeorgeH - Thursday, April 8, 2010 - link
You're absolutely right that IT is where the money is, and that's the problem. In the consumer space the i7-920/930 is going on 18 months of being the ultimate chip south of $1000, and looking at Intel's roadmaps it'll probably stay that way until at least this time next year. A 30-month shelf life for high end parts (which typically have the highest profit margin) isn't a good recipe for any chip maker's bottom line.One way Intel has been looking to "fix" that problem by expanding x86 into the low-end market to compete with ARM, with limited success. Another way they could fix the problem is by selling one or two $1500 CPUs for home use instead of their current model of 3 or 4 $100-300 CPUs. The consumer won't see the price difference, because 3+ extra cases, power supplies, motherboards, and assorted periphery will negate the CPU price differences, but Intel's bottom line will see a huge benefit as they would immediately grab a higher percentage of every dollar spent on consumer PC purchases. Additionally, core count bumps (like the 980X) would have immediate benefits for the average consumer, meaning a temporary end to 2+ year shelf lives on their high end parts.
Gumbico - Thursday, April 8, 2010 - link
How about adding a Citrix body to the roster?Randomblame - Saturday, April 10, 2010 - link
please stress that gpu virtualization is seriously holding up current implementations. I have an i7 6gb ddr3 3 way raid 0 ati 5850 and I can't even use the cube effect in ubuntu under virtualbox come on now this sort of thing should have been taken care of long ago, every other aspect of the virtual machine experience is wonderful. We need at least minimal 3d acceleration though!realvirt4me - Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - link
Put Simon Crosby on the Panel he is a great interview and has a great deal to do with xen.org. Or is this a Webinar Sponsored by Intel/VMware? The questions I would like asked are:Where is the type-1 Client hypervisor they promised a few years ago?
Why won't they allow third party performance benchmarking?
If you haven't seen Citrix's XenClient it's a real Type-1 Client Hypervisor. That is real Anandtech Stuff.